Better Red Than Right Said Fred

1. Ui-jeong Bu is pretty rough. Really.

2. The attackers were the ones who were perceived as not rooting with enough enthusiasm, not the other way around, according to that article.

3. You’ve spent too long there. You are clearly in the late stages of culture shock.

Posted from  United States

Wow. What’s with the people reading this blog? If you want to discuss something in particular about the game(s) why don’t you use these comment sections to do something other than whine? You could elicit opinions from Greekfreak or other Blog readers. You could put forth your opinion about the *gasp* game, instead of complaining about the Blog’s content.

Also, it seems from reading these comments that no matter what Greekfreak does you won’t be happy. Some people complain he doesn’t talk about the Korean team, but when he posts something Korea specific people complain. These people complain he should talk about the games only. But if he only posts about the Korean games there would only be two posts! And then the people who complain there aren’t enough posts would complain. And what happens to these blogs when a team is eliminated - do they just stop?

I think everybody needs to take this blog for what it is. A world cup Blog from the perspective of a person in Korea rooting for the Korean team. Obviously it can’t be exactly what any one other person wants because everyone wants something a little different.

Posted from  Australia

luke drift, come here:

http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=9

Better discussions, and you don’t have to wait for Greekfreak to post a new thread to begin a topic.

Posted from  Canada

I was struck to see how people questioned or reacted to the support the Korean people give to their OWN national team. I was regretably for once in that group of people. Football is known to bring the best (patriotism, plz dont confuse it with nationalism, and respect for others, etc.) or the worst (holiganism, etc.) in people.

The Koreans just support their OWN national team whole-heartedly like any other fans in the World: the Brits, the Germans or the Brazilians. They are known for their loud and tirelessly cheering inside and outside the stadium. They are even praised when they cleaned up their places after the game.

The question whether Korean fans being nationalists or soccer-mad was I guess nobody’s business. I think soccer fans around the globe should leave the issue to somebody else and talk more about soccer.

Posted from  United States

Hey, kinda strange - This site says I post from Australia when in fact I’m sitting at a desk in Korea. Heck my email even ends in @korea!

Posted from  Australia

“Patriotism, pl[ease] don’t confuse it with nationalisim[...]”

Do you even know what nationalism is?

Patriotism = “Love of and devotion to one’s country.”

Nationalism = “Devotion to the interests or culture of one’s nation; the belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.”

Korea *clearly* has a *serious* abundance of nationalism. Patriotism no doubt plays a part, but even patriotism remains unethical. How can an ethical individual take pride in the country they were born in? Did you choose to be born in that country? Did you have any part in the selection of the governance of that country?

Nationalism endorses segregation instead of unity. Patriotism relies on pride, arrogance and ignorance. Both of these qualities can be found in abundance among Koreans. Certainly, other nations sheeple also suffer from these neurotic patterns, but Koreans have a unique - and decidedly disgusting - flavor of their own.

They don’t cheer for footy. They cheer for Korea. And only out of their inferiority complex.

Sure, many countries’ fans don’t seem much better, but in general other countries don’t believe the BS. Koreans do. They actually think their shitty little country is somewhere nifty and special.

It’d be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.

Posted from  Republic Of Korea

reply to therion:
Your reasons confused me. But what I said may confuse you in the first place. So I would like to offer my opinion again. But before I do that, please let me say this: I am not a Korean, I considered myself a football fan and love the beautiful game not because of the appeal of the sport itself but also because of sheer unhidden love the fans give to their home teams. Football or soccer is after all a beautiful gamme according to Pele.
When I mention the fans of the other countries in my previous post,contrary to your assumption I mean no disrespect to them. In fact, I applauded the love fans give to their national teams. And like all the soccer fans in the world, I despise hooliganism. This is the WC after all: it is competition country vs. coutry in the spirit of fair play and sportsmanship. However, tt is foolist to assume or even suggest that a Korean or an Angolan or an American only love soccer when they may traveled miles and miles away from home to root for their national team.

When you suggest that Koreans cheer for their national team “out of their inferiority complex”, it is very insulting and disrespectful, even foolist (with all due respect to you.) I assume that you are an educated person, but I am eager to offer an explanation here: I dont know your standards of inferiority or superiority, but I believe that many people will agree with me that South Korea is a developed country. Perhaps you are unaware, but there are such global companies as Samsung, Hyundai (if you watch soccer, perhaps there is a chance that you will see this name) and LG. and they are all from South Korea.
It is puzzled how you get the idea that South Koreans would like to show their superiotiy through their national team. Even thought South Korean was a semi-finalist in the last WC in home soil, their skill and fighting spirit were considered by many less important factors than the favors from the refs. I am sure that Koreans know that better than anyone else. There is no doubt Korea is a good team, but they are not in the rank of the France, or England or Argentina. I think you will agree with me(if you watch soccer) that it will not be any time soon when South Koreans can match the skills and physical of England players, let alone the Brazilians. you were rather amusing to suggest that Koreans would like to prove their superiority to the World with their football team.I doublt that Koreans would ever do this, and nobody would, even the five time world champion Brazilians.
Korean fans after all just love their OWN team. Their passion and support for their team may draw dislike or critism, but the fact is they are just like other fans in the World: they support their team whole-heartedly and have pride in their team victories.

P.S.: yes I know the difference between nationalism and patriotism.

Posted from  United States

koreans dont care about soccer unless they can cheer about beating another country in something

soccer is an easy choice becasuse its flag vs. flag

notice how any sporting event becomes glorified in korea if koreans do well

ice skating
World Baseball Classic
Hong Man Choi K-1
soccer

Posted from  United States

I’ll just ignore the troll above. The World Cup is about a person’s love and interest in footbal. (soccer) It’s not about leaving degrading comments about a country and attacking the people. Yes, Korea is quite nationalistic but it’s proud of its country. The nationalism may come in part because of the annexation of Korea by Japan and the current US troops stationed in Korea. It’s led to a suspicion of foreigners. I don’t think Korea deserves all of this criticism. People should just leave them alone and focus on soccer. Complain about the games but don’t attack another country.

Posted from  United States

Notice the flag below my comment? I’m *in* Korea, and see *directly* their attitude towards footy. They don’t support local teams. They only get interested in footy when their team plays in the WC and has the chance to beat others - all an inferiority complex. “My worth comes in reducing the worth of others.”

Sure, the WC is about footy and not about the population at large, but for those of us who *live* the experience, watching the nationalistic pigs running about fretting about how great their team is, it gets rather pathetic.

Of course I am well familiar with LG, Samsung, Hyundai, Daewoo, Kia, etc. I’m also aware of the nation-wide protests in *support* of Dr. Hwang, even *after* he was proven to have falsified experiments. I’m also aware of the nation-wide *support* of Samsung, even after CEOs and corporate executives were proven to have bribed and extorted money from employees and government officials. I’m also aware of the *constant* scandals involving Daewoo and Hyundai, as well as the *support* for companies tried and convicted of illegal business practices.

Koreans support these companies because they identify them as Korea. Koreans are one of the most brand-loyal people on the planet - which contributes to the difficulties of Wal Mart and Carre Forre.

I’m also reminded of Hiddink - who wanted to stay in Korea after WC02, but his wife refused, saying that she refused to stay in Korea, where they are the most ‘racist people in the world’.

Xenophobia, nationalism, arrogance, inferiority, etc all add up to a disgusting mix.

The Korean club has moderate skill, but skates by on luck. Lucky calls by refs. Lucky no-goals that were goals. Etc. All this doesn’t contribute to a realistic view of their team. It feeds their combined national ego, which depends on the degradation of other countries and ignoring their own problems.

I hope Korea does manage to qualify, only to get slautered by Spain.

Posted from  Republic Of Korea

therion, just a question. Why are you in Korea?

Posted from  Canada

therion,

Nationalism in international sports is nothing new. It’s part of the package and I find it interesting that you would pick on the Korean fans for their support. One thing I find refreshing about the Korean fans is that they focus on supporting their team rather than wasting their time criticizing other countries which some soccer fans from other regions seem to prefer. And sorry but a lot of the things you note in your post about Korea, I find hefty doses in other countries as well and then some. Try living in at least five countries before you starting bashing on one.
And as alternababe asked, if you dislike it there so much, why are you there?

Patriotism, nationalism… notice where I’m writing this from… *koff*

(I’m wondering about the “nationwide” protests in support of Dr. Hwang — I don’t disagree that he still has his supporters across the nation but aren’t you overestimating their numbers just because of their attention-starved antics. In that case, white supremacy in America is also a “nationwide” movement with their own rallies and outside gatherings and all that.)

And I’ll stop this non-football post before it gets out of hand. Good posts, alternababe and Lafayette.

Posted from  United States

Alternababe - The ever ubiquitous non sequitur, “If you don’t like it, leave it.” They seem especially fond of this in the US.

Lafayette - Yes, nationalism does have a unique following among international sports fanatics. To that I have to refer to Chomsky’s observation that people waste so much cognitive energy on a frivolous affair, while having no idea about matters that actually mean something. They can quote all sorts of arcane, esoteric statistics, but they have limited awareness of their own government, and *no* understanding of themselves (people who rely solely on external constructs to program behavior - found the world over, to be sure, but especially prevalent in Asia).

You seem to be making the fallacy of association. Criticism of X != endorsement of Y. Many people adopt nationalistic tendencies in their enjoyment of international sports - they *all* negatively impact the situation. I criticize Korea specifically, because this blog focuses on Korea, and Korea may well be one of the most nationalistic and hubristic societies on the planet right now.

I’ve lived in *dozens* of countries; Japan, Thailand, Korea, China, Formosa, all throughout Europe, Africa and North America.

If you think Koreans don’t waste their time criticizing other teams, you obviously haven’t been privy to the Korean press. They roundly slander opponents before and after matches. Commentary during matches has no semblance of objectivity. Korean fans cheer when opposing players get injurred. Korean fans scoff when they get confronted with clear and incontrovertable proof that they got a lucky call that shouldn’t have been.

They really think this abysmal little country is something special.

KB Cho - White Supremacy has pockets of endorsement. Hwang and other illegal business ventures in Korea (recognized as one of the most blatantly corrupt governments in the world, and reported as such in the local media) have the aire of legitimacy. They aren’t reported on as insane fanatics, but legitimate, compassionate enthusiasts of a spurned national hero. Koreans themselves will adopt a baleful complacency when discussing Hwang, Samsung, et al. They feel that criticism of these national figures/entities equates to criticism of Korea; thus they identify these disreputable entities *as* Korea.

Posted from  Republic Of Korea

therion-

Your fondness for academic argumentation, strangely enough, doesn’t seem to prevent you from making some rather sweeping claims…Let’s have a look yeah?

1) Yes, the sort of myopia you describe afflicts everyone around the world…but this, you say, is especially prevalent not just in Korea, but all of ASIA?
I’ve lived in a few places myself. And though I haven’t undertaken any comparative assessment of the types of blinkered vision encountered in, say, India, as opposed to Uzbekistan, you know where I felt this most strongly? The good old US of A.
I don’t know if they’re any worse than say, the population of Egypt, but the bright-red majority of the United States continues to subscribe to a set of opinions and beliefs that are 1) stupid 2)naive 3) based on a lack of or profoundly distorted information, and 4) frankly quite terrifying. Feel free to tack on to the above list. All this in a nation that is rich and (formally) democratic.

We’re all familiar with this argument. So much so, in fact, that I actually find myself having to repeat to the Europeans I meet that yes, enlightened, forward-thinking Americans do in fact exist.

2)As for Korea’s Government being ‘recognised as one of the most blatantly corrupt Governments in the world’, well…I’m no fan of the Government, and yeah, there’s no shortage of corruption in Korea. But on what basis do you say that it’s one of the most corrupt? One measure is Transparency International’s Corruption Index: Korea does fairly poorly on it, it’s at the bottom of the top third on the list. A mere 3 spots above Korea, or a third of a percentage point above it is ITALY. And Greece is several slots below Korea. Argentina is in the bottom third of this 140 country list, and at the very bottom of course, one finds the usual suspects…countries like Bangladesh.

3) On the behaviour of the press and the fans. I haven’t heard any Korean commentary, but have no problems at all believing that it doesn’t even pretend to objectivity. You know what? Neither do the Italian or French press (I’ve been catching the games on French and Italian broadcasts.) The French reportage is significantly more balanced, however….

What’s most disturbing to me are the claims of fans laughing at opponents’ injuries. That, obviously, is sickening stuff, but I find it hard to believe that the majority, or even a significant minority of korean fans would do so. Is that what you claim?
If so, again I doubt it’s typical behaviour. It’d be equally unfair to dismiss all of England’s fans, for instance, on the basis of a very vocal, very racist/nationalist, and very violent minority of them. I’m referring of course to England’s famous hooligans: the lads who beerily chant things like ‘I’d rather be a Paki than a Turk’ (thousands of them, before England’s game against Turkey two years ago.), the same lads who chanted the same phrase, this time inserting Germany before England v Germany a year back. The same ones who stunk up the entire Continent so much that several nations had to enact special laws and policies to contain them…with the embarrassed and apologetic help of the English authorities.
But certainly the majority of Korea’s fans are much worse than this minority of England’s?

Therion, I’m also turned off by the kind of witless enthusiasm, the fanatically nationalist outpourings you’ve been witnessing. Hell, I’m disgusted with it myself. Now cool off, get a little perspective on things. And, uh, chill with the ’shitty little country’ talk while you’re at it.

Now, pls….FOOTBALL talk!

Posted from  Switzerland

Luke Drift - I agree, on many points. However, footy, like everything else, doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Holistic and synergistic approaches may not be in vogue, but they certainly work a lot better than complacent avoidance of unethical or unsustainable behaviors.

Posted from  Republic Of Korea

Therion-

I was going to stop commenting on non-football matters, since it seems all I’ve been doing here is refuting the Korea hate fest….but this is too funny.

So you agree with many of my points do you? All of which, in case you didn’t notice, were made to defrock your obnoxious and provocative broadsides? OK, uh, well good…

But–and I gotta admit I’m not exactly sure what you say here–you appear to be defending your prior comments as some sort of ‘holistic approach’?!? To what…single-minded prejudice? I’ve said everything I need to say on these points already. Good luck slogging through the rest of World Cup fever and do remember to take a break from Korea soon–you clearly need one.

Posted from  Switzerland

IClaw:

If these people don’t slog mud at each other here, they’ll do it on another blog. If people can’t police themselves, it’s not my job to do so.

Ignore the BS and just enjoy the rest of the content. Or not, whichever you want.

Posted from  Republic Of Korea

Luke drift - Unfortunate that I have to spell it out for you.

Your first tenent was obviously correct - stupid people reside in every country, and in abundance.

The second issue, centering around the corruption in government, recognized that many countries have intrinsically corrupt governments. It would be a mistake to think, “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” The issue moreso stems from, “Power attracts personalities which can easily be corrupted.” This relates to personality archetypes, which give a clear window into the different personalities that pursue these careers.

As for what method was used to substantiate my claim of ‘one of the most corrupt governments in the world,’ the local press, in specific, the Korean Herald, had a write up to that effect less than two weeks ago. The seeping election ‘defeat’ (depending on perspective) was a direct byproduct of widespread discontent with obvious corruption saturating all levels of government. The problem, of course, lies in the fact that the ‘opposition’ seems every bit as corrupt as the encumbents.

Yes, other teams have established even worse behavior at the injury of an opponent - just look to the Premier League for numerous examples. However, I would condemn those fools as well. Criticism of X != endorsement of Y.

In addition to playing the Korean lineup a dozen times or more, while the opposing team gets one chance - if they’re lucky (Ghana got 1/2 an introduction during their prelim), Ahn Jung Hwan uses football for envangelizing his brand of fundamentalist Chritianity throughout the world. He has been widely quoted as noticing that their 02 team had a ‘measely’ 6 Christians, whereas the 06 team has 12 Christians, so they will, “obviously fair better, with God on our side.”

Listening to Koreans go on and on about how they have the fourth best team in the world gets rather redundant, but they honestly believe it.

Koreans believe their team is good for a number of reasons, many of them racial/genetic or diet oriented in nature.

In a WC qualifier, the commentator opined, “I’m sure the Maldives are feeling privaledged to play against the number four country in the world.”

Korean fans banged gongs and chanted loudly to drown-out the singing of Ghana’s national anthem.

During the singing of Bosnia’s national anthem, they played ‘highlights’ from the Bosnian war.

All of these issues factor into any ethical person’s opinion of the Korean team. A holistic approach to the issue makes them disdainful and pathetic.

Posted from  Republic Of Korea

therion

your particular brand of dimestore psychology/collegiate dilettantism is somewhat amusing, but frankly incoherent, and ultimately an evasion.

1) If you agree that myopia exists everywhere, then it’s irresponsible to leak broad sweeping statements along the lines of it being ‘especially prevalent in ASIA.’

2) My point on corruption, much like my first point, is that Korea isn’t in fact recognised as ‘one of the most corrupt governments in the world.’ So now you say that this is so because the Korea Herald editorialized as much? I’ll stick with the TI index, tks.

3)You’re awfully pleased with this little criticism-endorsement syllogism of yours. Fine. But it’s entirely inapt here: noone’s claiming that your needling comments here imply an endorsement of any other unsavoury practices in any other countries. My points, simply, are that they’re being blown out of proportion (i.e. the MOST corrupt, especially prevalent in ASIA)
And once again you go back and forth. Is it the Korean team you dislike? Fine, you can come up with anything you like to justify hating 12 guys, I don’t give a fluck, knock yourself out.
But then you back to judging the Korean PEOPLE. (Koreans believe this, Korean believe that.)
And serve up a couple of instances that, if true, are certainly noxious, but hardly representative of the entire peninsula. It certainly doesn’t square with what my idea of a ‘holistic approach’ would be, at any rate.

This is really a simple point, but you’ve clearly still got spleen to vent anyways. And no doubt you will, but do us all a favour and do it elsewhere…this is getting tedious

Posted from  Switzerland

Greekfreak.. why is this guy keep putting stuff up on Korean blog? this your job?
If you are not going to write anything than don bother. You don have to web search for us.

Posted from  Republic Of Korea

therion, I never said “If you don’t like it, leave it.” I was wondering why someone would stay in a country they hate so much. Hence, the non-sequitur is on you and makes you sound like a defensive twerp who can’t take half of what he tries to dish.

Posted from  Canada

Being Korean myself, although I find therion’s statement offending, we are quite an aggressive people when speaking about nationalism, and soccer isn’t free from it as well. And, we do show bad manners sometimes (just as other countries do).

Posted from  Australia

Koreasn nationalists and racists???? Awwwwwww, come on, its none all of the little hangookers from that tiny peninsual next to the Sea of Japan. Its only about 99.9% . Dont be so harsh on yourselves. I see you love uri nara so much you’re in Hoju(Aus). Seems about right.

Posted from  United Kingdom

UMMM…WHAT COUNTRY DOESN’T????
PLUS MAYBE IT’S CUZ U JUST SEE LOTS OF PPL CHEERING FOR THOSE SPORTS. PLUS, IS THERE ANYTHING WRONG WITH HAVING LOTS OF FANS???
IT’S BETTER THAN HAVING NO FANS.

Posted from  United States